Amazing People - scientific riddles (Mar/25/2009 )
pito on Apr 22 2009, 11:23 AM said:
No as last saractic words....
I ment with true friends the kind of friends that you can always ask for help, that you can trust..those people that stick with you when you are out off a job and have no house to sleep in as an example.
(the kidney giving example is a bit too much I think lol)
And indeed: what are friend, or how should friends behave? not always clear cut.
I do not know if AS people have more problems with that? But if so: do they care? I mean: if it is hard to have empathy then is it hard not to have real friends?
I mean: will they be able to cope better with the fact that they have "no" friends then "normal" people who always seem to thrive on the fact they have many friends? (lately this is a hot topic: facebook etc... all thoise people seem to have +100 friends etc... but I think this is utterly crap: they live in some sort of fantasyworld)
I ment with true friends the kind of friends that you can always ask for help, that you can trust..those people that stick with you when you are out off a job and have no house to sleep in as an example.
(the kidney giving example is a bit too much I think lol)
And indeed: what are friend, or how should friends behave? not always clear cut.
I do not know if AS people have more problems with that? But if so: do they care? I mean: if it is hard to have empathy then is it hard not to have real friends?
I mean: will they be able to cope better with the fact that they have "no" friends then "normal" people who always seem to thrive on the fact they have many friends? (lately this is a hot topic: facebook etc... all thoise people seem to have +100 friends etc... but I think this is utterly crap: they live in some sort of fantasyworld)
Now, you're the one who's back so let's continue this discussion through eternity
....You don't like the kidney-giving parameter, eh... so scratch that tho it seems to me to be the ultimate test. Like I said before, there's really no cut and dried definition of what a real friend is but regarding yours i.e. it's someone you can turn to, someone you trust, someone who'd stick with you through thick and thin, perhaps you can complete it by saying that you'd do the same for them.
As for the friendship problems of AS folks, instead of asking "do they care?" perhaps a better question is "does it really matter to them if they have friends or not" and in Astilius' case, it doesn't. And maybe the same goes for the majority of AS people as well. But moi? I have more than 1000 friends, I have a personal secretary just to keep track of them and that's not utterly crap...and you've got less than 5
.... 
....casandra
-casandra-
Astilius on Apr 21 2009, 06:05 AM said:
Well, to be honest I'm not a huge Star Trek fan myself. The character of Data is interesting though as he does have a lot of similarities to AS folk. I think he has quite a following in the AS community...but then so does Thomas the Tank Engine which is inexplicable to me.
As for his emotions, he's far better without them but then I am biased as I feel that I would be better without mine. I don't enjoy emotions very much and seem to have a reduced palette of them.
As for his emotions, he's far better without them but then I am biased as I feel that I would be better without mine. I don't enjoy emotions very much and seem to have a reduced palette of them.
A limited palette, in terms of what? type/variety, depth/intensity or valence or all of the above? Can you imagine Data shedding tears of joy when he found his cat Spot alive after the destruction of the Enterprise? Or a Habs fan crying tears of anguish as the Canadiens got eliminated from the Play-Offs.....both are priceless...
..what do they say in philosophy? emotions are what make life worth living or sometimes ending.... -casandra-
casandra on Apr 23 2009, 05:41 AM said:
pito on Apr 22 2009, 11:23 AM said:
No as last saractic words....
I ment with true friends the kind of friends that you can always ask for help, that you can trust..those people that stick with you when you are out off a job and have no house to sleep in as an example.
(the kidney giving example is a bit too much I think lol)
And indeed: what are friend, or how should friends behave? not always clear cut.
I do not know if AS people have more problems with that? But if so: do they care? I mean: if it is hard to have empathy then is it hard not to have real friends?
I mean: will they be able to cope better with the fact that they have "no" friends then "normal" people who always seem to thrive on the fact they have many friends? (lately this is a hot topic: facebook etc... all thoise people seem to have +100 friends etc... but I think this is utterly crap: they live in some sort of fantasyworld)
I ment with true friends the kind of friends that you can always ask for help, that you can trust..those people that stick with you when you are out off a job and have no house to sleep in as an example.
(the kidney giving example is a bit too much I think lol)
And indeed: what are friend, or how should friends behave? not always clear cut.
I do not know if AS people have more problems with that? But if so: do they care? I mean: if it is hard to have empathy then is it hard not to have real friends?
I mean: will they be able to cope better with the fact that they have "no" friends then "normal" people who always seem to thrive on the fact they have many friends? (lately this is a hot topic: facebook etc... all thoise people seem to have +100 friends etc... but I think this is utterly crap: they live in some sort of fantasyworld)
Now, you're the one who's back so let's continue this discussion through eternity
....You don't like the kidney-giving parameter, eh... so scratch that tho it seems to me to be the ultimate test. Like I said before, there's really no cut and dried definition of what a real friend is but regarding yours i.e. it's someone you can turn to, someone you trust, someone who'd stick with you through thick and thin, perhaps you can complete it by saying that you'd do the same for them.
As for the friendship problems of AS folks, instead of asking "do they care?" perhaps a better question is "does it really matter to them if they have friends or not" and in Astilius' case, it doesn't. And maybe the same goes for the majority of AS people as well. But moi? I have more than 1000 friends, I have a personal secretary just to keep track of them and that's not utterly crap...and you've got less than 5
.... ....casandra
you have more then 1000 friends? What do you define as a friend then?
And do you seem them on regular base or?
It might suprise you, but I have a lot of "friends" , and now I am talking about people I know and that I like, to whom I am friendly and they are to me.
But real friends, those I can call and ask: can I stay with you tonight because I lost my job and house... those arent out there a lot.
-pito-
pito on Apr 22 2009, 05:29 PM said:
Eum, you say that people with AS are very loyal but then again you state its hard to keep your friends, but why is it hard to keep them? If you are loyal, then I do not see why its hard to keep them? Or do you mean its hard because they usaully abuse people with AS because they are too loyal or?
(maybe you allready answered this in the topic, but havent been able to read everything since I last visited the forum.)
and what is the need of a friend? you mean the need to be able to chat with someone or ? Because people sometimes seem to be wrong here and think that the need to talk to someone is the same as the need to have a friend or be with a friend.
(maybe you allready answered this in the topic, but havent been able to read everything since I last visited the forum.)
and what is the need of a friend? you mean the need to be able to chat with someone or ? Because people sometimes seem to be wrong here and think that the need to talk to someone is the same as the need to have a friend or be with a friend.
AS folk can be very naive and this is one of the things that opens them up to abuse along with their loyalty and apparent difference from other people. But just because we tend to be loyal friends doesn't mean we have the skills to keep friends. An example of this is knowing how long you should go between contact with your friends. Some firneds see/talk to each other every day, some every week, some longer than that. There is no hard and fast rule and even within one friendship this time can vary. This is not an intuitive thing for us and the lack of routine is itself a problem. So, we end up either being in contact too much (appearing clingy) or too little (appearing distant). The fact that where the AS person can see they can help and follow that up (and all the other aspects of loyalty) don't actually help becuase we are blind to and are confused by a lot of what it innate in NT's.
The question of what a friend is is interesting because I have spent some time on this issue and there seems no clear cut answer to it. It means different things to different people. As for your last point, I think you are right. I can have a need to discuss a matter to clarify it for myself but beyond needing someone who I am comfortable with it really doesn't matter who that person is. My wife can be great here because, not wanting to sound very clinical about it, because we have a shared library of topics discussed it makes further discussions easier and more rich through inherent cross indexing of topics discussed.
casandra on Apr 23 2009, 04:55 AM said:
A limited palette, in terms of what? type/variety, depth/intensity or valence or all of the above? Can you imagine Data shedding tears of joy when he found his cat Spot alive after the destruction of the Enterprise? Or a Habs fan crying tears of anguish as the Canadiens got eliminated from the Play-Offs.....both are priceless... ..what do they say in philosophy? emotions are what make life worth living or sometimes ending....
..what do they say in philosophy? emotions are what make life worth living or sometimes ending....I don't have as many emotions as you guys and what I do have seem to simply be aspects of the basic ones.
For example, envy and jelousy I can't see as anything other than different forms of anger.
Even happiness is a problem for me because it derails my thinking so much. I prefer what I call, "calm". A state where I don't really feel any overt emotional states but I can think clearly and make enquiries. I would prefer this state of evenness far more than a state of constant happiness.
Data finding his cat, I understand him feeling relief but the fact that this relief comes at the cost of the worry before seems a high price to pay. The dependance people have because they have become habituated to the presence of something does seem to be, when you look closely at it, to be a hindrance. Yes, there is an emotional depth there that is rewarding but I am extremely ambivalent towards emotions and so find the issue problematic. That said, I too had a cat and I loved my cat dearly and cried when she died. Her presence in my life was better than never having her and outweighed the pain of her loss.
But this all seems very selfish, the keeping of an animal to make the owner feel good seems disconnected from the animal's needs. If it's a mutual dependance then I have trouble with the idea of willingly becoming dependant on some external entity.
That all said, I still miss my cat and she died about 10 years ago.
As for sports - I genuinely think that the emotions generated as sports are fictitous. Sure no-one actually cares about the winning or losing of a group of people that you have no real contact with. It's a diversion but surely no one really cares?
I am aware that my opinions here may well show the schism between my AS thinking and your NT thinking and having had similar conversations in real life my thinking seems to generate something like anger. I don't see why, though.
-Astilius-
Astilius on Apr 23 2009, 06:00 AM said:
I am aware that my opinions here may well show the schism between my AS thinking and your NT thinking and having had similar conversations in real life my thinking seems to generate something like anger. I don't see why, though.
hey Astilius,
but perhaps this anger is just your take on it and not really what the others really feel after having these kinds of conversations with you...like you said , you probably lump certain emotions or impressions together bec you can't really tell the subtle differences among them...and no, there's no anger here..(just flippancy on my part so sorry for this)
..there's no reason for anger, what for......it's a good discussion and thanks for sharing with us the AS perspective....I'd write something more later... -casandra-
pito on Apr 23 2009, 04:38 AM said:
you have more then 1000 friends? What do you define as a friend then?
And do you seem them on regular base or?
It might suprise you, but I have a lot of "friends" , and now I am talking about people I know and that I like, to whom I am friendly and they are to me.
But real friends, those I can call and ask: can I stay with you tonight because I lost my job and house... those arent out there a lot.
And do you seem them on regular base or?
It might suprise you, but I have a lot of "friends" , and now I am talking about people I know and that I like, to whom I am friendly and they are to me.
But real friends, those I can call and ask: can I stay with you tonight because I lost my job and house... those arent out there a lot.
huh...and I thought you're already a member of our exclusive club....who has 1000 real friends? like you said- utterly crap
... -casandra-
casandra on Apr 23 2009, 05:38 PM said:
pito on Apr 23 2009, 04:38 AM said:
you have more then 1000 friends? What do you define as a friend then?
And do you seem them on regular base or?
It might suprise you, but I have a lot of "friends" , and now I am talking about people I know and that I like, to whom I am friendly and they are to me.
But real friends, those I can call and ask: can I stay with you tonight because I lost my job and house... those arent out there a lot.
And do you seem them on regular base or?
It might suprise you, but I have a lot of "friends" , and now I am talking about people I know and that I like, to whom I am friendly and they are to me.
But real friends, those I can call and ask: can I stay with you tonight because I lost my job and house... those arent out there a lot.
huh...and I thought you're already a member of our exclusive club....who has 1000 real friends? like you said- utterly crap
...Well I was indeed thinking you were sarcastic, but then I wondered whether you were like so many others that have +1000 friends true msn, facebook and others....
oh well and belonging to a club doenst mean you are always on terms with the club or that you are always abt to follow every move of the club
-pito-
pito on Apr 24 2009, 02:05 AM said:
Well I was indeed thinking you were sarcastic, but then I wondered whether you were like so many others that have +1000 friends true msn, facebook and others....
oh well and belonging to a club doenst mean you are always on terms with the club or that you are always abt to follow every move of the club
oh well and belonging to a club doenst mean you are always on terms with the club or that you are always abt to follow every move of the club
Oh yeah, all the wonders of online social networking, pito..…I suppose it’s probably not difficult to seek out and make more than a thousand friends, besides, it’s the “in” thing these days…luckily, our exclusive club also encourages original thinking so definitely no following of fads but otoh, you have to follow our rules.. that's it..……and going back to your example of what a friend is….I think you are equating friendship with usefulness/utility and you’re right, it could be one aspect of it but what happens then if your friend stops being useful to you anymore, would you still consider him as your friend? What if you lose jobs every two months, the first few times, he gives you a place to stay but on your latest bout of homelessness and joblessness, he couldn’t (for some reason or another) or absolutely refuses and tells you instead to get your act together, so is he a friend no more? Oscar Wilde once said that a true friend is one who'll stab you in the front...or throw you out in the street
This could also be the same for those we consider friends for pleasure or enjoyment…those we hang out with or chat with, those who have our same interests… so once their company ceases to be enjoyable, then will friendship also disappear?
-casandra-
casandra on Apr 25 2009, 05:56 AM said:
Oh yeah, all the wonders of online social networking, pito..…I suppose it’s probably not difficult to seek out and make more than a thousand friends, besides, it’s the “in” thing these days…luckily, our exclusive club also encourages original thinking so definitely no following of fads but otoh, you have to follow our rules.. that's it..……and going back to your example of what a friend is….I think you are equating friendship with usefulness/utility and you’re right, it could be one aspect of it but what happens then if your friend stops being useful to you anymore, would you still consider him as your friend? What if you lose jobs every two months, the first few times, he gives you a place to stay but on your latest bout of homelessness and joblessness, he couldn’t (for some reason or another) or absolutely refuses and tells you instead to get your act together, so is he a friend no more? Oscar Wilde once said that a true friend is one who'll stab you in the front...or throw you out in the street
This could also be the same for those we consider friends for pleasure or enjoyment…those we hang out with or chat with, those who have our same interests… so once their company ceases to be enjoyable, then will friendship also disappear?
Well, its hard, and a true friend will indeed kick your ass when you are doing things bad.
Eum, about the company ceasses to be enjoyable? Well if they are true friends, then you could ask why they are angry or why they changed ... if they are simple "lose" friends, the ones you know , but not really know.. then yeah, time to go on (the ones you say hi to, have a chat with, but not more)
-pito-
pito on Apr 25 2009, 07:56 AM said:
Well, its hard, and a true friend will indeed kick your ass when you are doing things bad.
Eum, about the company ceasses to be enjoyable? Well if they are true friends, then you could ask why they are angry or why they changed ... if they are simple "lose" friends, the ones you know , but not really know.. then yeah, time to go on (the ones you say hi to, have a chat with, but not more)
Eum, about the company ceasses to be enjoyable? Well if they are true friends, then you could ask why they are angry or why they changed ... if they are simple "lose" friends, the ones you know , but not really know.. then yeah, time to go on (the ones you say hi to, have a chat with, but not more)
Yeah, I know it's hard that's what I'm trying to say here. We can't pigeonhole relationships esp one as complicated as friendship or love for that matter. In the end, we decide for ourselves what friendship means to us or whom do we call a friend. There'll be a lot of factors entangled here (intentions, emotions, psychologic make-up, personality, societal/cultural etc). And I guess this is where we differ from AS folk..they can't cope with all these subtleties or this delicate balance involved in human relationships.
-casandra-