casandra on Apr 17 2009, 05:44 AM said:

NO!

Or maybe this NO is sarcastic?


@Astilius,

Keeping or making friends is for everyone hard and believe me: those "idiots" that think they have dozens of friends are all wrong. True friends are rare and at max 5 people are there that you may call friends and often in those 5 are the closests family members included.
(there is a dutch saying about this: you will know who your true friends are when you are in need.)

And I do not think that the "friendproblem" is a problem only for people with what you have.

pito on Apr 18 2009, 01:30 PM said:

No? ....No to the last words or no to becoming a member of our exclusive club, then it’s your loss, pito …

I’ve been thinking about what you wrote…that we have no more than 5 real friends throughout our lifetime. Perhaps it’s true, if your cut-off is really high i.e. a friend is someone who’d give you a kidney if you need one or someone you could entrust to raise your child if you suddenly die or become incapacitated. Otherwise, there are different degrees/variations of friendships and I agree, we can live with or without them. And I guess the minimum prerequisite is reciprocity. It’s logical... it can’t be friendship if one-sided or totally lopsided, that’s when extreme disappointments and abuses occur.

Besides, even the way we perceive or evaluate friendship could differ. Whom would you consider a real friend? The one who would give you unconditional support when you try to pursue your dream no matter how crazy nor impossible it seems or another who’d give you a wake-up call and tell you how foolish that is because you have neither enough talent nor ability to do so?

And if it is the mutual caring (affection) and sharing type of friendship, then this is where the AS folks get stuck I think. If friendship means thinking of each other’s welfare, sharing feelings of happiness as well as sadness, being there during the good and the bad and knowing what the friend needs most at these times….there’s a lot of empathy involved here that would be a real challenge for AS people. But I also agree that NTs have the same problems in establishing relationships as well. Who doesn't?

Astilius on Apr 17 2009, 06:44 AM said:

I don’t think that you’re really cold and autocratic but perhaps that’s how others would see you. Remember a few posts back, you said that you sometimes come off as being rude and arrogant or aloof…I guess most folks would tend not to peg you as friendly and approachable but they clearly misunderstand you, that’s all.

I agree too that this “distancing” is usually beneficial if not necessary when trying to handle a group of people. But isn’t it a normal progression of events that some people we’ve been working with esp after a period of time end up being our friends? I meant, those we’ve come to know, like, respect, trust..or those who experienced with us the same highs and lows of the job, those who have the same interests or ways of looking at things...and with the amount of time we spend at work, these “friendly” relationships are almost inevitable.

This made me laugh. I think if someone comes up to me asking me if I were their friend, the first thing I’d think would be: I’m gonna get hit for money or a favour (usually distasteful). You’re right, you can’t ask this question, besides you’d be putting the person on the spot and would force him to decide between brutal honesty and artful deceit…

This need to be alone? Could it be related to this hypersensitivity to physical stimuli ..sight, sound, touch, pain etc. that some AS folks suffer from?

Thanks for continuing this discussion and esp for your patience, Astilius…..Captain Ahab is not alone….

casandra

casandra on Apr 19 2009, 10:29 PM said:

Yes, this is the problem. Asking people seems to affect the answer. It leaves me in a difficult position in that I then don't know if they are my friend or not. I just can't tell. The last time I asked someone I stated before asking that the truth is what I wanted and my feelings wouldn't be hurt and that if they were happy then I was too and that without asking the question I couldn't tell (also being careful not to appear to be asking the person out!). The girl responded positively but I am aware that people may lie in this situation as they might feel uncomfortable and want the easiest way out. I don't think it happened in this case but I am aware of the difficulty involved in asking this question.
The fact that I have to ask such things is a good indication that I am, in such matters, broken.
I only have asked the question when I genuinely like the person and would count that person as my friend but am aware that friendship imbalances are problematic so want to avoid that.

My behaviour here has been likened to Data out of Star Trek. I'm not entirely sure that's supposed to be complimentary but it's, I think, accurate enough and I do understand the situation that such a being would be in. He's also kewl.

It may be have a relationship, yes. I have some hypersensitivites to noise, touch and cold. I think this might feed into my desire to be alone but the major factor is that alone I can be who I am without the messy business of socializing. I don't need to worry when it's just me.
I am very comfortable being alone and enjoy my own company.

You are very welcome. I am very open as to who I am so I don't mind the questions. Everyone with AS is an individual in it can affect different people in different ways (for example AS in the female population has quite a different appearance) but there are some common themes and if explaining how it affects me helps in understanding of the condition then I am more than happy to participate in that. Other than that I do enjoy this conversation.

Astilius on Apr 20 2009, 06:49 AM said:

I think he's pretty kewl too, in his own weird, unflappable, infuriatingly logical way...I'm not a trekkie (sorry) but I have read so many quotes from Star Trek and from him that I almost "know" him and it's hard not to appreciate the android trying so hard to be human but with a lot of hits and misses along the way and his character is so sympathetic...do you think he was better off with or without the emotion chip?

My gosh, you can give lessons to a lot of guys in being more open and not minding being asked.. ....

Actually, it's good that you mentioned AS in females..this is very interesting I think...it's probably underdiagnosed since the condition is more commonly seen in guys and it's doubly a challenge for women bec we are expected to be more emotionally-responsive and empathetic. If a woman is socially impaired then what about society's expectations e.g. dating, marriage, children? Are there differences in the treatment let's say, more geared towards gender? Sorry Astilius..more questions for you.....

casandra on Apr 21 2009, 04:40 AM said:

Well, to be honest I'm not a huge Star Trek fan myself. The character of Data is interesting though as he does have a lot of similarities to AS folk. I think he has quite a following in the AS community...but then so does Thomas the Tank Engine which is inexplicable to me.
As for his emotions, he's far better without them but then I am biased as I feel that I would be better without mine. I don't enjoy emotions very much and seem to have a reduced palette of them.

Well, I think the 'treatments' that are available for AS folk hinge on aiding the individual with their specific issues. This should then be targetted at the issues that AS females face.
I know that it can be harder for females to be diagnosed with AS for two reasons that reinforce the pattern - there are less female AS individuals than males and female AS individuals are far more social than male AS individuals. They seem more capable in studying and learning certain social behaviours. They're by no means brilliant at it but they seem more capable than males at it. This helps mask the condition and diagnosis for females takes a different slant than it does for males but it probably is far harder to spot in females than it is in males.

I am not an expert in this, though.

faulty genes?

casandra on Apr 19 2009, 11:19 PM said:

No as last saractic words....


I ment with true friends the kind of friends that you can always ask for help, that you can trust..those people that stick with you when you are out off a job and have no house to sleep in as an example.
(the kidney giving example is a bit too much I think lol)

And indeed: what are friend, or how should friends behave? not always clear cut.

I do not know if AS people have more problems with that? But if so: do they care? I mean: if it is hard to have empathy then is it hard not to have real friends?
I mean: will they be able to cope better with the fact that they have "no" friends then "normal" people who always seem to thrive on the fact they have many friends? (lately this is a hot topic: facebook etc... all thoise people seem to have +100 friends etc... but I think this is utterly crap: they live in some sort of fantasyworld)

pito on Apr 22 2009, 04:23 PM said:

Do they care? Yes, we do.
Now, I do seem to have a diminished need for friends but I can have that need. And while it is usually fulfilled by what you might call tangental online contact it is still there.
But people with AS often struggle with their need for friendship but inability to make and (importantly) sustain friendships.

Don't get too caught up with the empathy thing. People with AS are often very loyal to their friends and that opens them up to all sorts of abuses. Yes, they have difficulty sustaining friendship but it's not through willful neglect, they just don't have the tools to help them. I think the concept of "empathy" brings up the wrong mental image and while formally correct isn't a useful description to the lay person.

Astilius on Apr 22 2009, 05:50 PM said:

Eum, you say that people with AS are very loyal but then again you state its hard to keep your friends, but why is it hard to keep them? If you are loyal, then I do not see why its hard to keep them? Or do you mean its hard because they usaully abuse people with AS because they are too loyal or?
(maybe you allready answered this in the topic, but havent been able to read everything since I last visited the forum.)

and what is the need of a friend? you mean the need to be able to chat with someone or ? Because people sometimes seem to be wrong here and think that the need to talk to someone is the same as the need to have a friend or be with a friend.