Amazing People - scientific riddles (Mar/25/2009 )
Astilius on Apr 7 2009, 11:29 AM said:
Ah, sometimes I don't realize a conversation isn't working out. Sometimes I miss that the person I'm talking to is bored.
Sometimes it's more important to me, or more interesting to me to talk about something than it is for someone to listen.
It's something that I need to work on along with talking about the same things over and over again.
My wife could probably tell you more about being a victim of this than I can.
Yeah, there are an awful lot of non-verbal body language that I cannot read. Much of the idiocyncratic stuff I don't know what's happening. I try just ignore it or see if I can understand what it means for that person.
It can lead to little insights about individuals or it can lead to being confused.
But, yeah, I've spent a lot of time watching people and how they interact so that I can function in these relationships. That said, get me in a group of more than two people and I rapidly start drowning as it all happens too fast and simultaneously. That processing and selectivity that NT's can unconsciously achieve is quite impressive from the outside.
People have said that I would make a bad manager because of this but I think (and have experience of) the opposite. Management is in a very controlled environment and largely in groups of small numbers. I can analyze things very specifically and carefully then.
Language I love. Short poetry I love. I have had to learn by rote metaphors and analogies and turns of phrase (and sometimes badly. I do attempt them on my own but people say that my analogies are terrible but I can't see why). I have had to learn to try be comfortable with ambiguity which can make a lot of language difficult (e.g. poetry). As a child I wanted to be a scientist because that was (to my young mind) about facts and proof and evidence.
Two out of three aint bad but that there are no "facts" was a real struggle for me. Realizing that we cannot know everything and what we do know if purely on an evidence based system was an enormous salve to my perception. Godel's work showing that we cannot know everything was enormously distressing to me.
I like to think that AS folk have a lot to offer, that we're different but not better or worse than NT's. Where we're good at something and you are bad you'll be good at another thing and we'll be bad. Certainly we look at the world in different ways and all the BIG problems are only solved by new perspectives and new ways of thinking.
But yeah, Ahab's obsession, determination and bloody minded perseverance is very glamourous to me. I understand a man like that...I am a man like that. ... 
Sometimes it's more important to me, or more interesting to me to talk about something than it is for someone to listen.
It's something that I need to work on along with talking about the same things over and over again.
My wife could probably tell you more about being a victim of this than I can.
Yeah, there are an awful lot of non-verbal body language that I cannot read. Much of the idiocyncratic stuff I don't know what's happening. I try just ignore it or see if I can understand what it means for that person.
It can lead to little insights about individuals or it can lead to being confused.
But, yeah, I've spent a lot of time watching people and how they interact so that I can function in these relationships. That said, get me in a group of more than two people and I rapidly start drowning as it all happens too fast and simultaneously. That processing and selectivity that NT's can unconsciously achieve is quite impressive from the outside.
People have said that I would make a bad manager because of this but I think (and have experience of) the opposite. Management is in a very controlled environment and largely in groups of small numbers. I can analyze things very specifically and carefully then.
Language I love. Short poetry I love. I have had to learn by rote metaphors and analogies and turns of phrase (and sometimes badly. I do attempt them on my own but people say that my analogies are terrible but I can't see why). I have had to learn to try be comfortable with ambiguity which can make a lot of language difficult (e.g. poetry). As a child I wanted to be a scientist because that was (to my young mind) about facts and proof and evidence.
Two out of three aint bad but that there are no "facts" was a real struggle for me. Realizing that we cannot know everything and what we do know if purely on an evidence based system was an enormous salve to my perception. Godel's work showing that we cannot know everything was enormously distressing to me.
I like to think that AS folk have a lot to offer, that we're different but not better or worse than NT's. Where we're good at something and you are bad you'll be good at another thing and we'll be bad. Certainly we look at the world in different ways and all the BIG problems are only solved by new perspectives and new ways of thinking.
But yeah, Ahab's obsession, determination and bloody minded perseverance is very glamourous to me. I understand a man like that...I am a man like that.
... Hi Astilius,
Can I just ask what particular topic you’re so interested in that you can go on and on about it….the periodic table…. Michaelis-Menten kinetics or all the chemical Laws named only after guys? Then your wife is not a victim but a martyr.
Pragmatics is quite tricky but like you said, it can be learned but to continually observe people's interactions, to watch and learn, then try to practice and then to find out that perhaps with a different person or group, the dynamics are different, you miss some cues or you feel like rules suddenly get changed, doesn't this get frustrating in the end? Wouldn't you say that perhaps also another reason why you chose to be a scientist (aside from working with facts, methods, proofs and evidence) is bec you don't need to deal with people every minute of your working time? Of course, we still need to function well within a group (and shld be good team players), a one-person lab isquite rare but we could spend a major part of our day doing our own stuff alone by ourselves.I’m quite hesitant to ask you this (although I’m shameless to the core) but I’d still ask anyways: do you think people treat you differently once they discover/realise that you have AS? Well, perhaps a better question is: do you expect to be treated differently? Would you prefer that they modify/adjust f.i. their speech patterns i.e. using more simple, direct language devoid of idiosyncrasies, just to accommodate you? Sorry if I ask too many questions.
It’s rare that we can get a perspective like this on AS so thanks once again for being so open. Considering what you have to work with and struggle with all your life, another person would’ve just given up and withdrawn into their comfort zone…but not you….you’re like the fictional Captain Ahab minus the literal Pequod and harpoon….
regards,
casandra
-casandra-
You know, I always got the impression that minor autistic traits are just what one needs in the lab. I have, apparently, "ADHD", but very mild, which can be attributed to personality traits. Learning to take everything apart, analyze, pay attention to the details and repeat, repeat, repeat has been so hard for me, when my natural way of thinking is putting puzzles together and see the whole picture, then jump right to the next task. Also, I delight in metaphors and all the verbal stuff, it's like music, or candy. The funniest thing is to take a metaphor to the literal level and make a poem, or a new metaphor, using a twisted meaning What I saw in science was the harmony of theories and facts fitting together. Of course, in time, it showed up to be total chaos. But as it's changing all the time, I delight in chaos. Still, routine makes me cry.
-Telomerase-
Einstein and Newton 'had autism'
-Nabi-
I’m quite hesitant to ask you this (although I’m shameless to the core) but I’d still ask anyways: do you think people treat you differently once they discover/realise that you have AS? Well, perhaps a better question is: do you expect to be treated differently? Would you prefer that they modify/adjust f.i. their speech patterns i.e. using more simple, direct language devoid of idiosyncrasies, just to accommodate you? Sorry if I ask too many questions.
Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)
(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)
-pito-
pito on Apr 12 2009, 05:40 AM said:
Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)
(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)
(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)
Hi pito,
I think that people would usually notice if someone’s different or we can say a little (or a lot) “off”. The signals we can detect and this sense ( how we intuit them), we’ve learned to develop since childhood. And with people affected with AS, you don’t get only one signal but a combination of them: avoidance of eye contact, impaired prosody and pragmatics, repetitive behaviours, ‘obsession’ with one topic of interest etc….these are all very hard to miss. I read that in contrast to autistics, AS- affected people early on show interest in engaging in activities or interacting with others, but because of the difficulties to fit in, or bec they feel different, then some of them become frustrated and then withdraw and end up being socially isolated. But as Astilius has pointed out, with behavioural and occupational therapies (or even drugs), the condition can be managed and social skills can be learned. Of course there could still be a lot of pitfalls but even the NTs are not immune to these social situations blowing up on our faces.
It’s very interesting your final comment esp about hypocrisy i.e. when you don’t like someone (or something?) you don’t hide your feelings. In the Japanese culture, they have this concept of “wa” or harmony…probably what we westerners would consider taken to the extreme. People have “honne” or true feelings and “tatemae” those they show in public. If showing their true feelings would not be for the common good, they’d conceal them to avoid discord and maintain social harmony….of course, this is an over-simplification and it’s a lot more complicated than that. But we can go back to your example, it’s probably easy to show you don’t like someone when it’s somebody you met them on the street or in a bar but what if it’s your boss, a colleague you have to work with 8 hours a day, your child’s teacher, your mother-in-law?
It’s probably one of the positive outcomes of having AS, I think they’re probably more “honest” and wouldn’t engage in any form of “acceptable” deception just to maintain social harmony. But we need to ask Astilius about this too.casandra
-casandra-
casandra on Apr 13 2009, 04:27 PM said:
pito on Apr 12 2009, 05:40 AM said:
Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)
(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)
I mean there are a lot of people outthere that are not like the "standard" idea we have of people (read as what the society wants you to be) and I wonder if people really ask themself the question: eum he seems strange, what is wrong with him... or do they just take you as you are and dont really wonder whats wrong? (meaning: open minded and not putting you in some sort of box)
(I ask this question sometimes too, for myself: what do people think about me... but its hard to get an answer on that question lol, you cant just ask it, but I find it an intersting topic, I do not like the hypocrisy thats commonly used : friendly in your face but behind your back... I tend to just tell whether I like someone or not, or I at least do not hide it)
Hi pito,
I think that people would usually notice if someone’s different or we can say a little (or a lot) “off”. The signals we can detect and this sense ( how we intuit them), we’ve learned to develop since childhood. And with people affected with AS, you don’t get only one signal but a combination of them: avoidance of eye contact, impaired prosody and pragmatics, repetitive behaviours, ‘obsession’ with one topic of interest etc….these are all very hard to miss. I read that in contrast to autistics, AS- affected people early on show interest in engaging in activities or interacting with others, but because of the difficulties to fit in, or bec they feel different, then some of them become frustrated and then withdraw and end up being socially isolated. But as Astilius has pointed out, with behavioural and occupational therapies (or even drugs), the condition can be managed and social skills can be learned. Of course there could still be a lot of pitfalls but even the NTs are not immune to these social situations blowing up on our faces.
It’s very interesting your final comment esp about hypocrisy i.e. when you don’t like someone (or something?) you don’t hide your feelings. In the Japanese culture, they have this concept of “wa” or harmony…probably what we westerners would consider taken to the extreme. People have “honne” or true feelings and “tatemae” those they show in public. If showing their true feelings would not be for the common good, they’d conceal them to avoid discord and maintain social harmony….of course, this is an over-simplification and it’s a lot more complicated than that. But we can go back to your example, it’s probably easy to show you don’t like someone when it’s somebody you met them on the street or in a bar but what if it’s your boss, a colleague you have to work with 8 hours a day, your child’s teacher, your mother-in-law?
It’s probably one of the positive outcomes of having AS, I think they’re probably more “honest” and wouldn’t engage in any form of “acceptable” deception just to maintain social harmony. But we need to ask Astilius about this too.casandra
I would like to add the following casandra:
The hypocrisy topic is not about really showing you do not like someone by telling them: I do not like you, but more a way of showing: ok I can work with you or whatever but I will never be your best friend... I know this is hard to explain, but I was more refering to the hypocrisy that people show when they are just "too happy" to see you...
I am more talking about the idea of "I love you or like you" thingie that a lot of people have .. they do not act the same way when you are there or not there.
There is a huge difference between that and the part of telling someone in their face you hate them.
I cant really explain it, its hard, but I hope this helps.
Second comment: true, most of the times you would see that something might be wrong, but I really ment: would they care when they see it? I mean: ok you see he is wrong, but would you change your behaviour then? would you ignore the person or rather not have contact with him? Its more the state of mind of people I am wondering about, not the fact if they really notice it.
-pito-
pito on Apr 13 2009, 11:19 AM said:
I would like to add the following casandra:
The hypocrisy topic is not about really showing you do not like someone by telling them: I do not like you, but more a way of showing: ok I can work with you or whatever but I will never be your best friend... I know this is hard to explain, but I was more refering to the hypocrisy that people show when they are just "too happy" to see you...
I am more talking about the idea of "I love you or like you" thingie that a lot of people have .. they do not act the same way when you are there or not there.
There is a huge difference between that and the part of telling someone in their face you hate them.
I cant really explain it, its hard, but I hope this helps.
Second comment: true, most of the times you would see that something might be wrong, but I really ment: would they care when they see it? I mean: ok you see he is wrong, but would you change your behaviour then? would you ignore the person or rather not have contact with him? Its more the state of mind of people I am wondering about, not the fact if they really notice it.
The hypocrisy topic is not about really showing you do not like someone by telling them: I do not like you, but more a way of showing: ok I can work with you or whatever but I will never be your best friend... I know this is hard to explain, but I was more refering to the hypocrisy that people show when they are just "too happy" to see you...
I am more talking about the idea of "I love you or like you" thingie that a lot of people have .. they do not act the same way when you are there or not there.
There is a huge difference between that and the part of telling someone in their face you hate them.
I cant really explain it, its hard, but I hope this helps.
Second comment: true, most of the times you would see that something might be wrong, but I really ment: would they care when they see it? I mean: ok you see he is wrong, but would you change your behaviour then? would you ignore the person or rather not have contact with him? Its more the state of mind of people I am wondering about, not the fact if they really notice it.
But that could also not be a hypocricy issue but more of a personality one. Some people are just happy all the time (I hate them too
) or they just don't want to show you a morose face when they meet you or their life sucks and they feel miserable yet they'll hide this and end up over-compensating instead or there could be a myriad reasons and have nothing to do with you or what they really feel or think about you.And as for someone telling you "I love you/like you" to your face and then acting or saying things differently when you're not there, I think that that's beyond hypocrisy..it's already lying or a real deception. And personally, I prefer that people tell me that they don't like me rather than having them pretend that they do when they don't....then at least I'd know what to expect..the worst part of course is realising that you've been fooled.
About people changing behavior once they realise there's something off with the other person...I think it largely depends on their mind-set or the kind of people they really are... most will probably be open-minded about it and will not drop nor ignore you once they realise that you're different. That's my guess or what I would do but like I said, Astilius can probably shed more light on this. Btw, how often do you wonder what people think of you cos you mentioned this earlier? Does it really matter what they think? I'm just curious.....
casandra
-casandra-
pito on Apr 12 2009, 10:40 AM said:
Just an extra question regarding this question casandra asked you Astilius: do people notice it that there is something "wrong" or different with you?
casandra on Apr 13 2009, 03:27 PM said:
It’s probably one of the positive outcomes of having AS, I think they’re probably more “honest” and wouldn’t engage in any form of “acceptable” deception just to maintain social harmony. But we need to ask Astilius about this too.
Yes, people pick up that I'm not 'normal' quite fast. I can come across as rude, arrogant, dismissive, shy and "weird".
I can be very blunt and direct, I can look like I'm ignoring you or near refuse to look at you. I can stare at one aspect of you (say, if you had a mole on your face or anything like that) or watch your mouth rather than your eyes.
My social skills are terrible, my turn taking in conversations is difficult and in conversations with more than just one other person I will have extreme trouble. If I don't care for your topic of conversation I may very well not take any part in the conversation and do something else. If we're having a discussion and the topic of conversation drifts to something else and I'm not done with the original topic I will drag it back until I am done, even though everyone else is done. I usually don't notice that others are wanting to move on but even if I do I may not care that much and need to complete it for my sake. I can talk about the same stuff over and over again.
My honesty can be a problem. People don't actually want honesty but I'm not very good at deception (I had to learn to lie and I'm still not good at it).
AS folk seem to act with integrity and honesty. These are two traits that I hold great value in, even though I see corruption and dishonesty almost everywhere. Office politics I see as utterly disgusting and refuse to act in such an underhand manner.
I see people promoted because they are stupid but pose no career threat to the person doing the promotion and see good people held down because they would be a threat. I won't act in this way. This combined with my honesty means that people seem to fear me and also try hold me back. Apparently, one common trait of AS folk is that they are employed at several levels below their ability level. I can attest to this and firmly believe it's because people fear their ability and integrity.
As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.
-Astilius-
But that could also not be a hypocricy issue but more of a personality one. Some people are just happy all the time (I hate them too )
Yeah, but I wasnt thinking about those people, they are just like that.
Its just that a lot of people put on their poker face and act stupid or friendly while you know they arent like that.
Anway, I never liked the hypocrisy idea of you need to be friendly the whole time etc... By this I do not mean that I am a bully or unfriendly towards strangers, but simply mean that I will not act friendly and all too happy in front of people that dislike me or that I dislike. I will still be respectfull, but will not act that friendly.
As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.
When I read this then I recognise myself haha
I also want to know every detail and keep on discussing it.
And by discussing it I do mean discussing it and not "wanting to be right" the whole time. A lot of people are misleaded by my drive to know stuff and wanting to talk about it with wanting to be right the whole time. People sometimes do not get the fact that I want to more know then just a simple yes it is like this or no its the other way around and thats it.
I need answers.
Thats what I like in real debates with people that are like that too: they are fiercy in their discussion but are not being personal or are not shouting or getting mad or something like that.
-pito-
Astilius on Apr 14 2009, 10:16 AM said:
My honesty can be a problem. People don't actually want honesty but I'm not very good at deception (I had to learn to lie and I'm still not good at it).
AS folk seem to act with integrity and honesty. These are two traits that I hold great value in, even though I see corruption and dishonesty almost everywhere. Office politics I see as utterly disgusting and refuse to act in such an underhand manner.
I see people promoted because they are stupid but pose no career threat to the person doing the promotion and see good people held down because they would be a threat. I won't act in this way. This combined with my honesty means that people seem to fear me and also try hold me back. Apparently, one common trait of AS folk is that they are employed at several levels below their ability level. I can attest to this and firmly believe it's because people fear their ability and integrity.
As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.
AS folk seem to act with integrity and honesty. These are two traits that I hold great value in, even though I see corruption and dishonesty almost everywhere. Office politics I see as utterly disgusting and refuse to act in such an underhand manner.
I see people promoted because they are stupid but pose no career threat to the person doing the promotion and see good people held down because they would be a threat. I won't act in this way. This combined with my honesty means that people seem to fear me and also try hold me back. Apparently, one common trait of AS folk is that they are employed at several levels below their ability level. I can attest to this and firmly believe it's because people fear their ability and integrity.
As I hope I'm illustrating, my social skills are poor at best. Charismatic I'm not but if you want a robust discussion in which all avenues are considered and things thrashed out then I'm your man. I might have to go away, have a think and then re-discuss with you, though. NT's seem very flighty in their thoughts to me.
Hey Astilius,
You’re back. Thanks for more of your insight and for continuing this discussion. Just a couple of points in response to what you wrote....it’s not hard to believe that folks with AS get jobs well below their ability level and you could be right too about some stupid management people or people with influence fearing your ability and integrity. But I have to say (too) that it depends first on what kinds of jobs we are talking about. If they require a lot of people interaction then you need a person with great people skills…finance, sales, advertising, human resources, entertainment…..how about teaching? Imagine giving a lecture to or discussing with 200 smart-alecs and what about the healthcare professions, the military, law enforcement?
Most jobs now require “being a good team player, having excellent communication skills, functioning magnificently under unimaginable stress”. And then what about during job interviews when you need to put your best face forward
? Itwouldn't be surprising if there’s a high incidence of unemployment among AS-affected people. And if one’s lucky and manages to get in, the workplace environment nowadays could stress-out even the best of the NTs, I just wonder how the AS folks would fare - better or worse? You don’t play office politics, this one I can understand, but what about following orders? How do you take authority or hierarchy? And which jobs would AS-affected people excel in? I suppose the best jobs are those that are the main focus of your interest (your obsession), that’s logical, I guess, cos by the time you reach the age for job hunting, you’d already be an expert in that field…. perhaps even those close to you who’d have been hearing about it from you all those years are probably just as qualified…
And Astilius, I have to disagree with you about the NTs being flighty in their thoughts (that’s probably only me or those with a lot of imagination and creativity) I think that a lot of NTs are organised, focused and can pay attention to details as well as have a handle on the whole picture.
casandra
-casandra-