pito on Apr 14 2009, 10:43 AM said:

But you are such a picky customer, pito ….you don’t want poker-faced, not stupid nor friendly-faced…..so what other face is left then? Besides, friendliness or the appearance of being friendly (or too friendly) could be a cultural thing too….I guess most of you Europeans (except those from the south) look “cold” to us north Americans and we probably look so “friendly” to you?

How about infusing some dry wit and sarcastic humour in the discussion....is that another no-no for you pito…..sometimes I think you’re too serious dude. I agree that engaging in a good discussion doesn’t mean one has to win or score points, usually hearing a different POV or learning some new insight or being challenged to think more is enough. And as long as there are interesting points raised or questions asked then we can continue discussing…..even till eternity...

casandra on Apr 15 2009, 04:10 AM said:

People management, for me, isn't an issue. A lot of people seem to mistake being able to manage people fairly and being their friend. The former I can do, the latter I cannot.
As for hiererchy, AS folk can be like anyone, some enjoy a hierarchy and the order of things and others have trouble with authority. I don't think AS is a major factor in that, though it can reinforce some behaviours.
I've given talks in front of hundreds of people with no issue. I tend to treat people evenly and am honest with them. I have lead teams successfully in the past and have had people request that they come with me when I move departments - I take that as some indicator that people are not averse to my style of management, even though I don't want to be their friend.

Job interviews - now, I do get unstuck here. I am beyond dreadful at them. I can, at my best, get an interview for any job I want. I will fail 99% of job interviews, though. That, intense short term thing that interviews are about is beyond me. I tell them what they ask and give examples of my ability and suitability for the jobs - that seems as if it's not what they want. I can't often deliver what they need. I, naturally, assume a job interview is about how well you could do the job but it's not and it's not something I can do very well at all. I'm also not very good with strangers.

As for being flighty, I mean this as a generalization. NT folk seem less foucsed than most AS folk but there are, of course, exceptions in both camps. As I've said in a previous post I think AS folk and NT folk compliment each other in abilities, not that one if globablly better than the other. As a group we are stronger than each camp is seperately.

casandra on Apr 15 2009, 05:20 AM said:

Its hard to really explain what I mean.
Anyway, I didnt mean people you do not know, but people you do know==> thats when I dislike the friendly face and stuff when you know they do not like you.

dry wit and sarcasme is great, I am a very sarcastic person...

pito on Apr 15 2009, 10:59 AM said:

Actually, I think I know what you mean. But how do you know (or can confirm) that a person doesn't like you when s/he only shows you a "friendly" face...thru a third party? body language? Could you just be speculating or being very sensitive or over-imaginative?

Then we should form a club...and I will appoint myself as CEO.....

casandra on Apr 15 2009, 06:22 PM said:

True, you do not always know this, but thats also a sort of hypocrisy: people acting like they like you, while they dont.

But sometimes you just know it because you hear it from others or you can spot it by the way they act at certain moments.

I know you need to be very carefull with it, but I am.
But sometimes its just obvious they do not like you or are acting hypocrit.
A good example is the "end of the year or the end of a schoolperiod" celebration, moment.
==> all of a sudden all those people in your class are friendly with you , wanne meet you later on etc.. while during the year(s) you were in the same class they never even listened to you or ingored you etc... and all of a sudden the act friendly and wanne stay in touch etc.. lol

But you hit a hard point there: how to know if they (dis)like you?
Good point!
Sometimes I just think: let them know, tell the person you dislike him... but what if it is your boss or coworker etc... then you have another problem so its a difficult matter.

yeah we should

pito on Apr 15 2009, 01:02 PM said:

But can you really equate like and dislike here? I think it's easier to show if we like someone or something for that matter. We have a tendency to hide more our dislike than our liking for people cos liking (someone) is a positive emotion (unless it's the pathological kind) which is not difficult to express at all yet otoh, it's also easier to fake and I guess that's your point....but it could be paranoia too...

and those hypocrites who acted oh so friendly and wanna stay in touch with you after the school year's over, hope you replied to them with a very heavy dose of sarcasm, otherwise, you can't be in this club.......

I sure did!

pito on Apr 16 2009, 11:37 AM said:

Then you've just become a bona fide member of our club ...any sarcastic last words?

Astilius on Apr 15 2009, 06:58 AM said:

Hi Astilius,

Oh yeah, I can see how you could talk to a big audience without getting anxious cos you can make it almost impersonal e.g. don’t look at people's eyes or focus your sight on something else like those faded ugly heavy drapes at the back end of the room, concentrate on what you’re saying or read the computer screen etc. But what about your management style, is it also impersonal? I’ve never done any personnel management and I suppose there’s really no one “right” way to manage people but I think that a good manager is flexible enough to choose a style fitted to the kind of people s/he has to deal with and the goals to be achieved. I guess if you’re in the academe or in a lab so most probably the group you manage is not so big….so which style works out for you? The autocratic but benevolent dictatorship kind? You decide, then direct, supervise or even delegate tasks and then set dealines? No mush, no non-sense, direct and strictly goal-oriented? And how about the issue which will really test your management skills: conflict resolution.

I think that we’ve touched on this topic in one way or another in this forum. Most PIs have the talent, the competence and knowledge to set up their lab, organise their projects (stretch them out till retirement) and produce outcomes which hopefully benefit society (not just for their glory) and yet some of them fail at handling their own lab personnel. Usually, lab people function well enough on our own, however, all you need is one person to destabilise the whole group dynamics and if you have more than one, you can just imagine what can possibly happen. So how would you resolve conflicts among your people without drowning in them yourself?

And lastly, I guess making and keeping friends can be a great challenge for you (the same is true for many NTs too), so how long does a stranger stays a stranger to you? Forever or until after a certain amount of time for whatever parameters you consider?

casandra

I'm not necesarrily cold and autocratic. I try to be friendly and approachable but I'm not their friend. This distance is useful, I think.
Conflict resolution is always tricky but if you are more senior then you can force people to look at what is reasonable (far harder to do in peer based relationships) and then make even handed judgements. If people realize that they are bound by what is reasonable then most things get resolved easily. Where someone is being pig headed then when this is pointed out then they often don't like it but will back down. Often the culture of an institution is harder to deal with than people's attitudes (and can directly affect how people work no matter how good a manager you are).

I'm all about reason. If I am directing people and someone comes up with a better way of doing things than me or a clever idea then I'm very much in favour of doing that - whatever works. It had the benefit that they see that they have direct input and are rewarded for their effort. I don't much like the "do as I say" style of management as people then have no vested interest in making things work well, in fact they may have an interest in things not working well.

Making and keeping friends is a problem for me. I find it very difficult to make friends and I have no real capacity to keep them. I am intensely loyal to my friends and that leaves me open to abuse
I don't actually have much of a need for friends, though.
I am married and have a baby but beyond that I have no friends.
But I can get into trouble when I get to know people - I don't know when you are someone's friend and have found asking them if they are my friend isn't a good way forward.
There are people I respect and chat to about things but I am not clear if that can be regarded as friendship. As much as I enjoy their company I am often glad to be alone again and have no need to see these people in social situations.
There are a few people I would like to be friends with but the practicalities of that seem beyond me.
I've had many many conversations with my wife about friendship and if someone is my friend or trying to be my friend. I have the same conversations over and over again and it's something I don't get any better at. The impaired ability to read non-verbal cues and all the other AS traits get in my way and I can't see what you folk see in other people.

The impaired ability to make and keep friends and to be open to abuses is a common theme among AS folk.