male/female ratio - how many men or women? (Mar/31/2009 )
pito on Jul 14 2009, 01:24 AM said:
Nabi on Jul 13 2009, 05:41 PM said:
pito on Jul 13 2009, 11:45 PM said:
Is it possible that there are less women in science because they are less assertive?
I would not agree to that. They also have inquisitive mind as much as men have just that the field of interest might be different.
Bigger question is : are there really less women in science?
Remembering my school/college days, they were as (or sometimes even more) attracted to science. Boys were more into Physics and Chemistry while girls more into Biology. Even in biology, girl only wanted Botany while boys preferred Zoology. Even the staff in my school reflected the same pattern. All the staffs in Botany were female (except one who was just there for something even he did not understand) and in zoology, all the teaching staffs were men.
I guess animal experiments keep them away from biomedical research. Botany forum should have more women.
Eum, my experiences do disagree with this.
you say that there are more women in botany? I went to a "botany" school ( dont know how to say this really, but it was a school specialised in botany) and all the staff were male! Ex 2 womens and one of that womens was specialised in cows lol
Another point: the studies to become a vet: almost all women! Especially in the small animals direction or the horses. Farming animals are more boys
During my schooltime and practical lessons I noticed often that girls were more affraid to ask things, they lacked a certain attitude to ask or do things.
Example on what I mean with missing a certain assertiveness: I was once working with a girl and she needed something , but didnt know where it was. I noticed that she wasnt working anymore, but just sitting there and I asked why she stopped and she said: I need this, but do not know where it is.
I simply stood up, went to a person that worked at the lab and asked him: where is this and .... he told me where it was and I gave it to the girl...
After a while, I asked why she didnt ask it herself and her answer was: I just waited till our supervisor passed by , so I could ask him. I do not know the other people here and do not want to disturb them.
I have plenty of examples like this. I used to ask teachters questions that the girls had , but didnt dare to ask.
And I have had this many times.
They never dared to open their mouth.
I am not saying they are worse in science or that they do not have a certain interest or whatever , but I am stating that a lot of women are more scared, less "agressive" and thus less likely to get somewhere.
I think if you do not dare to open your mouth sometimes you lose oppertunities.
I think its wrong to say that women are scared- that is you percieving that not speaking directly or being instantly assertive is a sign of fear. I can indentify with the situations you have described, but from the female perspective, however in my opinion it is not fear, it is deference and respect for others around. Often I can see that the supervisors are busy so I wait for a easier opportunity to approach people and ask for help, when I think that people are more likely to be positively responsive.
I can understand how this could be perceived as fear or being un-assertive, but that is perhaps from your "male" perspective. Psychologically men and women respond to circumstances differently and think differently. Maybe this is partly the issue here. How men and women see each other responding and behaving- as a man you are you more likely to remember someone or listen if they are being more assertive or aggressive in a positive way? Historically men had an advantage in gaining positions, but now those barriers are far less, but the psychological differences are acting as barriers now? what do you think?
-LostintheLab-
LostintheLab on Jul 13 2009, 10:09 PM said:
I think its wrong to say that women are scared- that is you percieving that not speaking directly or being instantly assertive is a sign of fear. I can indentify with the situations you have described, but from the female perspective, however in my opinion it is not fear, it is deference and respect for others around. Often I can see that the supervisors are busy so I wait for a easier opportunity to approach people and ask for help, when I think that people are more likely to be positively responsive.
I can understand how this could be perceived as fear or being un-assertive, but that is perhaps from your "male" perspective. Psychologically men and women respond to circumstances differently and think differently. Maybe this is partly the issue here. How men and women see each other responding and behaving- as a man you are you more likely to remember someone or listen if they are being more assertive or aggressive in a positive way? Historically men had an advantage in gaining positions, but now those barriers are far less, but the psychological differences are acting as barriers now? what do you think?
I can understand how this could be perceived as fear or being un-assertive, but that is perhaps from your "male" perspective. Psychologically men and women respond to circumstances differently and think differently. Maybe this is partly the issue here. How men and women see each other responding and behaving- as a man you are you more likely to remember someone or listen if they are being more assertive or aggressive in a positive way? Historically men had an advantage in gaining positions, but now those barriers are far less, but the psychological differences are acting as barriers now? what do you think?
And I really wonder how people and esp guys would react if they are faced with such an assertive, aggressive or demanding woman? Would they be more inclined to help her out (if she needs any help) or would it be a turn-off? Would she have earned respect and admiration or instead provoke the raising of defense barriers? Would she be treated any differently since she doesn't fit the stereotypical image we have of how women shld behave?
-casandra-
lacking the "bad ass" attitude and thus not being able to get far in research
a. None of the successful male scientists that I know personally have a "bad ass" attitude either. I don't think you have to be aggressive to get to where you want to be. I also think that women have to be a little more careful then men when they are being assertive as there is a tendency to see it as bitchiness, where in a man it would just be assertiveness.
b. plenty of women "get far" in research
less women in science
I disagree, in my department the majority of the 3rd years, honours and PhD students are female (although you do get a bit of fluctuation year to year with the undergrads, so I am speaking in general).
We have 7 main lab groups and 4 of these are run by women (2 of which have children).
Two recipients of Australian of the Year awards in recent years are female scientists (both of which have children, one actually has 5 or 6 kids!!), we have a new hospital being built in honour of one of them.
-leelee-
LostintheLab on Jul 14 2009, 04:09 AM said:
pito on Jul 14 2009, 01:24 AM said:
Nabi on Jul 13 2009, 05:41 PM said:
pito on Jul 13 2009, 11:45 PM said:
Is it possible that there are less women in science because they are less assertive?
I would not agree to that. They also have inquisitive mind as much as men have just that the field of interest might be different.
Bigger question is : are there really less women in science?
Remembering my school/college days, they were as (or sometimes even more) attracted to science. Boys were more into Physics and Chemistry while girls more into Biology. Even in biology, girl only wanted Botany while boys preferred Zoology. Even the staff in my school reflected the same pattern. All the staffs in Botany were female (except one who was just there for something even he did not understand) and in zoology, all the teaching staffs were men.
I guess animal experiments keep them away from biomedical research. Botany forum should have more women.
Eum, my experiences do disagree with this.
you say that there are more women in botany? I went to a "botany" school ( dont know how to say this really, but it was a school specialised in botany) and all the staff were male! Ex 2 womens and one of that womens was specialised in cows lol
Another point: the studies to become a vet: almost all women! Especially in the small animals direction or the horses. Farming animals are more boys
During my schooltime and practical lessons I noticed often that girls were more affraid to ask things, they lacked a certain attitude to ask or do things.
Example on what I mean with missing a certain assertiveness: I was once working with a girl and she needed something , but didnt know where it was. I noticed that she wasnt working anymore, but just sitting there and I asked why she stopped and she said: I need this, but do not know where it is.
I simply stood up, went to a person that worked at the lab and asked him: where is this and .... he told me where it was and I gave it to the girl...
After a while, I asked why she didnt ask it herself and her answer was: I just waited till our supervisor passed by , so I could ask him. I do not know the other people here and do not want to disturb them.
I have plenty of examples like this. I used to ask teachters questions that the girls had , but didnt dare to ask.
And I have had this many times.
They never dared to open their mouth.
I am not saying they are worse in science or that they do not have a certain interest or whatever , but I am stating that a lot of women are more scared, less "agressive" and thus less likely to get somewhere.
I think if you do not dare to open your mouth sometimes you lose oppertunities.
I think its wrong to say that women are scared- that is you percieving that not speaking directly or being instantly assertive is a sign of fear. I can indentify with the situations you have described, but from the female perspective, however in my opinion it is not fear, it is deference and respect for others around. Often I can see that the supervisors are busy so I wait for a easier opportunity to approach people and ask for help, when I think that people are more likely to be positively responsive.
I can understand how this could be perceived as fear or being un-assertive, but that is perhaps from your "male" perspective. Psychologically men and women respond to circumstances differently and think differently. Maybe this is partly the issue here. How men and women see each other responding and behaving- as a man you are you more likely to remember someone or listen if they are being more assertive or aggressive in a positive way? Historically men had an advantage in gaining positions, but now those barriers are far less, but the psychological differences are acting as barriers now? what do you think?
Yeah, but you say that you would ask it at another time.... I ment that they do NOT ask it NEVER! (or they wait for minutes, hours untill someone passes by they know)
I also think that the females active here have the assertivenes to do so, but what about all those other women that lack this ?
I have met a lot of women during my school time and 80% of them were very shy and didnt dare to ask anything and I do not mean that they waited for a more appropriate time, they just never asked it.
I do not think its normal to be affraid of teachers and not daring to ask them questions.
I remember that when I had a problem or question I asked other students and of they did not know it: I asked the teacher.
If the girls had a problem: they asked eachother and if no one knew the answer they just left it and didnt ask the teacher.
And I do not think that people would see a women as a bitching girl if she asks questions.
And in genearl I also want to note (because I think some here misunderstand me) that with "having a bad attitude" I do not mean being agressive or brutal. I mean simply that men seem to be more outgoing and more relaxed in daring to ask questions.
A last example I want to give is the use of emailing: during my research or study I email to authors of articles when I have specific questions, NONE of the females at my previous job dared or even concidered doing this even if they had questions.
More then once I said: this is very specific on the article, ask the author .... they always smiled and said oh well, maybe I'll do it like this, its ok...
I really do think that a lot of females drop out because of this or do not start because of this.
I think thats also why they always state that females pick the more "soft" jobs, or enter the "soft" industries more.
I think in general girls are more "soft" maybe I have had the bad luck with being in a class with a lot of "soft" gils, dunno, but I have seen them cry more then once during my schoolperiod over stupid things like not being able to solve a chemistry question or not understanding something.
I really do not know if this is the case for the majority of women.
Historically men had an advantage in gaining positions, but now those barriers are far less, but the psychological differences are acting as barriers now? what do you think?
you do have a point here.
However I think those barriers will indeed go away in time.
@casandra
And I really wonder how people and esp guys would react if they are faced with such an assertive, aggressive or demanding woman? Would they be more inclined to help her out (if she needs any help) or would it be a turn-off? Would she have earned respect and admiration or instead provoke the raising of defense barriers? Would she be treated any differently since she doesn't fit the stereotypical image we have of how women shld behave?
If she asks it in a normal way, why not? I think people should be able to speak to eachother and ask questions!
But I do have to admit , I am more of the "new" style then the "old" firm style where you had all those stupid rules and acting harsh things.
I noticed this a lot during school: older profs didnt really appreciate it when you asked them questions: you should ask their assistents etc.. but the newer younger generation is different: they are more open.
Same with taking an exam: older ones prefered you to come in wearing a suit.. seems kinda stupid to me, its about knowledge, not the way you are dressed.
And yes some of the older profs were also against women.
On the other hand: I once had a prof that was pro women if they dressed sexy... 5 boys 8girls during that semester: all girls passed, only 2 boys passed and it was a very technical course, the women understood almost nothing of it , but they passed.... it made us wonder... also the prof had this kind of reputation... so oh well..
-pito-
Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?
-LostintheLab-
LostintheLab on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM said:
Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?
I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong
...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability 
) -casandra-
casandra on Jul 15 2009, 11:10 AM said:
LostintheLab on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM said:
Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?
I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong
...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability )Yeah, I would say European women and north American woman are fairly equally assertive (maybe the north americans are slightly more (just being extra sterotypical here
)). I'm a pretty shy person, but nothing compared to some people in my lab over here (and they are still very good scientists btw), but this I can see has a big cultural factor in it. -LostintheLab-
LostintheLab on Jul 14 2009, 10:30 PM said:
casandra on Jul 15 2009, 11:10 AM said:
LostintheLab on Jul 14 2009, 08:22 PM said:
Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?
I think he's Belgian, Lost...unless I'm wrong, but I'm rarely wrong
...actually, I was thinking the same thing....I can't believe Belgian women are this "shy"? I'd have thought that most european women are just as assertive as the north americans...and the scandinavians even more ...but I could also be wrong (0.001% probability )Yeah, I would say European women and north American woman are fairly equally assertive (maybe the north americans are slightly more (just being extra sterotypical here
)). I'm a pretty shy person, but nothing compared to some people in my lab over here (and they are still very good scientists btw), but this I can see has a big cultural factor in it.if by assertive we mean being confident or firm and direct in our dealings with others..yeah, we're probably equal in that respect but if it means being pushy or expressive, we are probably more ( flamboyant too)
...and I guess you're right about the japanese...it's a strongly hierarchical society and conformity is the rule...everyone has a role that they have to stick to and I suppose the women are at the bottom of the ladder...this doesn't diminish their ability in anyway but it's something that most of us westerners can not really understand... -casandra-
LostintheLab on Jul 15 2009, 02:22 AM said:
Can I ask where you are Pito (and you don't have to to reply). Perhaps some of the "shyness" from the women from the cultural background they were raised in?
I am from belgium, as casandra allready stated.
I have no idea if it has to do with the cultural background.
Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe I just had bad luck having very shy girls in my classes.
But I am not the only one who complained about this. Other boys in my class had the same problem and even teachers made complaints about some girls being too shy, scared to ask things.
Sometimes they rather made an error or didnt do anything at all instead of asking the teacher for advise.
There was once a practical course in the laboratory and 1 group never even got started because they kept looking at eachother because no one knew what to do and the teacher was just sitting at her desk, overlooking everhting and after 15 minutes she said: ok, we stop right here, if no one knows what to do there is no point in continuing and no one even asks for directions from me...
We had the same course later that day and we also didnt really know what to do, but I simple went up to her and ask here what to do exactly etc.. I started my experiment and I noticed that some of the girls in the group just copied what I did in stead of asking the teacher for help too.
In the end 2 other boys asked the teacher for more information to start.
And this happened not in the first year but in the 3the year! All the people there were at least 20 years old!
-pito-
Until now the most of the discussion is based on anecdotal evidence, i.e. in one institute are mostly men in the other only women etc....to have a basis we'd need several hundreds of posts with their data to prepare a statistic. Aren't there any published data and stats that also deal with the assumption that the higher the position is, the less females are there (for whatever reasons)?
@shyness:Sometimes I think that the difference of shyness within a group of students (males and females mixed) is higher than between the genders (also here mostly anecdotal evidence is given ).
To add my anecdote: I was a very shy pupil and student, almost never said or asked anything (and with very bad participation grades). But with time I learnt to overcome it, gave oral presentations (as pupil I rather would have died than giving an presentation). And now I even give classes without problems...
Let the students learn and develop, I guess many will do it finally if they have some time... 
-hobglobin-