Quitting the PhD - (Oct/20/2011 )

Dears,

I started my PhD in translational biology here in Austria before 6 months after completing MRes in biomedical science from UK,where I rejected an offer from Canada for this project.

However ,after starting only I came to know that almost 15 PhD students were quit from the institute within the last 10 years due to the lack of proper supervision and guidance.

I also dont have any senior PhD students,Post docs in my field,where the supervisor was able to spent only 30 minutes in the last three months .

So I am thinking to apply for a new PhDs .Hence it would be grateful to know what will be the chances for getting a new one,as I already acquired new techniques such as TIRFM,FACS and confocal microscopy.

So I have some more techniques and exposure in addition to the masters,but still the quitting issue does impediment my chance?

Thanks

A PhD is also to proof that you can work independently, therefore don't expect too much supervision...Of course some is needed from time to time but less than while doing your master thesis. Anyway you also can develop your own ideas and feel free to make your own stuff within the project's goals, this can be an advantage too, if you know the methods and techniques sufficiently. And you can ask other researchers to help you for some parts of the work and so make useful/helpful connections.
Anyway for me much important would be a project that is reasonable, i.e. you really have a chance to manage it within the time and you can see aims that you can reach. Help and supervision you can get elsewhere if necessary.

hI,

Thank you for the reply.The reasonable timing,thats major stuff concerning me.Here a typical PhD student takes around 4.5-5 years for the completion of PhD and so far only one student out of three successfull doctorates got a post doc and an impact 6 paper publication.

Having a pure biological background and using electron microscope,Atomic force microscope and all other complicated instruments with out proper guidance is time consuming.

I want to start my postdoc within the next 4 years.Mean time I cant be pessimistic like other doctoral students in the lab now.

First - it depends on the lab you are in - and from what you tell us your lab has not a great reputation in educating people well - because more than one PhD who quits each year is quite a high number.

Most people whom I know finished their PhD within 3-4 years here in Austria. So the time needed sounds relatively long for me - which probably is also not the best sign. Do the people get payed during the whole time of the PhD - usually PhD contracts are given for three years only and then do not get full salary....are you aware of such problems?

High Impact publications are important, but are usually not the things that decide if you get a Post Doc or not - what is more decisive is the amount of contacts you were able to establish during your PhD and what those people think of you - because I know about many many jobs that were never published but were given directly to somebody.

And last: if you really want to stay in science you must be aware that you are not able to plan your career as you possibly are in industry. So you need enough enthusiasm and be able to tolerate a high level of frustration and most important you must be able to meet challenges within a short time like Dr H already pointed out - so if you really think this is not the right place to do your PhD you should start to look around, and if you think you can manage the tasks and survive the lab you should start to work hard to be the one of three PhD students who make it ;-)

Dear ,

Thank you for the valuable advice about post doc.Being an industry and collaborated to the university,students usually get paid until they decide to stop.The fact is that there are no experts are coming and the company don't like to throw away the 5 years experienced student.In fact ,I was stunned by the group leaders awful behaviour to the one who got post doc in US,solely because ,he was reluctant to stay here further.

Although only 6 months I have some novel results and the company is very happy.So,I am confident enough that I can make a very good outcome within the next 2.5 years.

But the only retrieving factor is that lack of commitment from my supervisor.Just one week after I started I was asked to supervise a master student for her remaining 5 months lab work in surface chemistry and cell invasion.Having a good background in cellular and biochemical science I was able to guide there ,but couldn't do with PDMS and clean room related issues,which is not my field.

Strikingly until the last day of her work I didn't ever seen that she was being asked,discussed or judged for her work properly.I am not happy with what she achieved and I afraid she may lose her carrer now.

Any how I am spending only 30 minutes per day for further PhD applications and rest for my PhD here.So no negative thoughts will interfere with my productivity.

But in summary this does not sound to bad. Although your situation seems to be challenging, it looks as if you are at a good institution with both - links to basic science and applied science. And if you are not at a research only institute (i.e. university) you are in a lucky position that your salary is not depending so much on project applications.

I am sure there are people around who will be able to help you with the techniques you need - because there will be a scientist or technician in charge of the instruments/labs. these people (usually) know more about the everyday lab work than your supervisor. As far as I have seen from your last mail you seem to be coping well - and having freedom to work on a project also gives you a good opportunity to progress your skills and to develop a research profile - which you often do not have when a supervisor is guiding you with a lot of attention through your project.

Dear,

Its a fact that at my institute is owned 80 % by company and 20 % by the university and its a non profit .At the moment we don't have a technician/scientist for the instruments ,except one for cell culture.Although a post is been advertised for a long time ,but no one has been applied yet.

The fact is that one group leader told to me that the company have a very bad reputation at the university,and indirectly in Austria ,which impediment the availability of any PhD students to him,where a PhD position is announced for the last two months and not received a single entry until now.

I know that its a very good position to be multi experienced,which I really wanted after masters,where such positions are usually available at MIT & Oxford.

Any how I am extremely thankful to both of you for the advice given and wish you very nice weekend.

brand on Thu Oct 20 13:57:22 2011 said:

You do mean that those students left themself? Its not that the institute kicked them out?


Anyway, strange question, but have you ever confronted your supervisor with the lack of guidance?

+ PhD does indeed mean that you need to work more on your own.. altough its true you still need guidance.. Nobody can work on his own for 100%.
You cant be an expert in every think you do.

One thing to keep in mind: the grass is always greener at the other side...

Dear Pito,

I think when striving for candidates to open positions no start companies will ever sack the existing work force. For example the one who got post doc in US now initially spent 6 months cell culture training under the company cost in an external institution.Can u think about paying 1345 euro per month as a salary and further training cost for 6 months to study simple cell culture?

I already talked with my supervisor and he agreed that he will bear more time for me.Any how I am confident that I can finish here successfully ,but at the moment I am not happy with the exposure I had now.

brand on Sat Oct 22 12:14:44 2011 said:

PhD students get "fired" once in a while..
Once you are in, it doesnt mean you are in till the end... if you suck at your job, you will get kicked out.
+ you are not looking at the cost-benefit ratio like you should. Yes, they invest money in PhD students, but the benefit is that they get results, new products.. If they dont: there is no point in furter investment in that person.

(and you speak of post doc.. this is a bit different then PhD students)

Good.

Just a little note:
supervisors often dont know that their students need attention or help. If you dont ask it: they think everything is fine... This is also part of the PhD education: becoming more self aware and becoming more assertive.
The days that teachers/supervisors gave you all the steps and told you how to do every step is over.

I cant really know how it is where you do your PhD, but I can give an example of a supervisor that works at the university here and he guided 15 students before he encoutered his current student.
This student came up to him (because I forced her) and said: I need help, I cant deal with it, you need to help me more because things are not working as it should...You are my supervisor, so supervise me, help me or I quit.
It came as a shock to the supervisor! Never before had any of the 15 previous students dared to ask for help!
Now the supervisor changed his way of dealing with students a bit and he became more pro active (asking if they need help etc himself or planning regular meeting moments with his students).

Do you know what that supervisor told me after he had that chat with his 16the PhD student? He said: damn, those 15PhD before this one.. I wonder if they had problems too? If they did, then why didnt they ask me? They are grown ups.. I am not going to hold their hand like a little baby.

And I know of 3 of them that they regulary complained (to me and others) that they didnt receive the help they wanted or that their "supervisor" wasnt good etc... While I knew he was very very good! I (and the others working there) could always enter his lab/desk to ask questions! He even stayed during weekends/late hours to help if you needed help. But he was of the principle: no questions, no problems.
And I often told those students to go up to his desk and ask for help.. but none of them did it...
Once I got so tired of this crap that I took one student with me to his desk and said: she has a question, but she is afraid to ask it.
At that moment, that girl her face looked like a tomato, never seen a girl that red, I think she was about to sink through the floor.
But it did help as you could allready read.

But in general it always ended up the same way: either I (or someone else) helped them to continue or either I (or the others) informed the supervisor that he needed to explain something to his student because something wasnt clear. However we always did this in a subtle way because we knew the students wouldnt like it if their supervisor helped them because they complained to us.




You see what I mean?


My experience with people/students/new workers is simple: 90% of them is not assertive enough and doesnt dare to ask questions.