good handling tj.......so now do we understand why alcohol is present in every civilisation? It not only promotes social coherence but also improves a grumpy disposition, eh George (gosh, there's that word again- distaff...but all in all that was funny)......we should have more pub parties here....

GeorgeWolff on Oct 8 2009, 12:18 AM said:

George, this time it is me who has to correct you The researchers who investigated the Humungous Fungus - an exemplare of Armillaria bulbosa (I am not sure if it is still called bulbosa to stay taxonomically correct) went along the (connected) rhizomorphs formed by species of this genus. But there are two gigant Armillaria described...too lazy to look up for which one the data are correct For the non-mycologists among us: Armillaria rhizomorphs are black, app. 2mm-1.5cm diam. solid structures formed by the fungus to transfer nutrients etc. from one place to another.
But I agree with the overhype; as fungi spread with their mycelium in soil, so you can bet more than one pint, that there are much larger ones out there, but those are not easily described because of the above mentioned reasons.

GeorgeWolff on Oct 8 2009, 12:31 AM said:

Your word in gods ear But it is really sad that taxonomy is not getting the attention it deserves; without proper taxonomic knowledge we are ending up beliving in clone-libraries and OTUs to be true and (to get the discussion back to alcohol) end up like the global beer market dominated by one single universal taste....

georgie was correct - and i read the stuff on the "huge fungus." The so-called tracing of mycelium was pretty self serving and without validation, In any case failed to rule out anastomoses of distinct mycelial units.


geberg...... is right and I'm sure georgie will agree. The romance of mycology is gone. Taxonomy has been taken over by a bunch of analytical chemists/molecular engineers. doubt if many of those folks even drink and if they do it's at TGIF.

eberthella, how would you define "one organism" when it comes to "complex" (or should I better say poorly understood) lifeforms like fungi??? I think the study which was done on the huge fungus is quite good, although you are right has some methodical shortcomings. It is the best possible way to do such studies until now, maybe we will develope methods which can satisfy your expectations as well
But when it comes to fungi we have even to learn what is an individual or how to define what is one individual. This is still a hot debated topic whith lots of room for discussion! Another thing which seems to get lost more and more lost: discussing concepts and problems....there are so many studies done just to proove somebody elses (or own) work.....

One mycelial colony as these folks concluded in the study we're discussing. How else would they have gotten so much press? If it were so "poorly understood" they were even less advised for such a certain conclusion but what do you think "poorly understood" is in reference to this observation? Can you direct us to some of these discussions?

the researchers assumed that fruiting bodies connected by rhizomorphs with the same genetic fingerprint is the same organism; one point here are the anastomosis you mentioned earlier.........so far to the armillaria story.....

Question: a fungal mycelium is spreading and covering an area of lets say 20 m². Suddenly this mycelium is cut in two pices by lets say building a road through it and all of a sudden you have two independent mycelia of the same individuum. So are these two individual fungi now or are they still one even if they cannot communicate anymore?
Or to forumulate it less hypothetic: you are trasferring one piece of agar with mycelium to a fresh petri dish where it starts growing again: do you have two individual fungi or is it all one, as you used the same starting material? So the big question is: how to define individuals?? This is an essential question with all clonal organisms.

And next comes the question what are species, genera or better how to *define* taxonomic units (so which concept is applied).

they become independent individuals with identical genome. however, the epigenome will define differences along the life cycle of these individuals, providing each with their very own characteristics, for example monozygotic twins. this webpage can give you more details:

http://epigenome.eu/en/1,4,0

and about the second question, taxonomy imo causes too much controversy, not even to mention all the problems it generates when it comes to defining a bacterial species

edit: bad spelling...

All this points to the self-promotional nature of the guys hawking their "huge" colony in the news.

hi eberthella,

something that has not been mentioned here is the impact that press and promotion have on funding. sponsors usually like giving money to something that will have a major impact on the news, e.g. have a look at the british group discovering new species in new guinea

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/...000/8210394.stm

i'm sure they won't have funding problems any time soon. similarly, the group talking about this huge fungus didn't mind having some extra propaganda. and it's not a matter about the money and fame itself, it is about getting money to continue doing research in a competitive environment and a world on recession.

good point - as in most efforts "follow the money" and add the corollary here "... and not the science."