male or female in fungi? - spermatia (Jun/20/2008 )

gerb - what are you talking about? You've obviously not read anything of the ohenomenon described that was based originally on observation of ascomycetous fungi - esp Neurospora - not the basidiomycetous rust fungi. Ylu are apparently as ignorant of the term ascomatta.

What is so difficult in understanding sexual v. asexual forms of fungi or any eukaryotic? Think meiosis and mitosis. By primary definition conidia do not function sexually. They can well function in transmitting genetic material either as germinated hyphae/germs tubes or presumably as germinated spores just as many fungi do via processes such as anastomosis and even karyogamy. This can be accomplished in the lab using spheroplasts as discussed in a separate string.

Ascospores are products of meiosis - recombination is not a necessary or sufficient element of meiosis.




Again to the eager pito, I enjoy your eagerness and appreciate your using the primary literature. What i think you'll find most informative on this subject is to contact the folks you identified and probe their thinking on the subject. The phenomena they describe is taught in mycology as a minor element and folks rarely repeat their observations - esp. since Neurospora is such a pain in the lab. This leaves some folks somewhat skeptical (or at least that's how it left me). The phenomena may indeed be as described but the evidence in tbe literature as I read it years ago was not compelling.

Jorge 1907, you should read what is written!

I wrote "spermatia was probably adapted from the life cycle of rust fungi (Pucciniomycotina)" where this term has been used for a long time. Just an "etymologic" suggestion, not comparing basidiomycetes to ascomycetes, sorry I thought this was clear, my fault.

The 9th edition of "the Dictionary of the fungi" is from 2001, so not decades old (10th gets out in october this year)

And I am aware of the difference of the developement of sexual and asexual spores in fungi, but you seem to be not aware the fact that some fungi need different mating types (+ / - or even more complex) to produce fruiting bodies.....and these have to undergo karyogamy....so you need to different cells from different origin (no matter if recently germinated asco/basidiospores, conidia, or established mycelium) which were produced asexually or sexually to start the sexual cycle in some fungi. So for some fungi recombination IS necessary for sexual reproduction.

And beeing critical towards results of other working groups (esp. if they are difficult to repeat) is good. But beeing critical means to think if something is possible and not to call everything "bullshit" at first and don't belive anybody....where do we have to go then? Check everything back to Dennis, Moser, Singer, Bon, Gams, Esser just to mention some of the "more recent" mycologists...or back to Fries, Saccardo or even earlier Linne?????

I might have not been very clear in the start.

Let me rephrase everything a bit.


The microconidia are the product of an asexual reproduction.

BUT they can act as a sexual "organ".
What happens is that the microconidia can fall onto sclerotia or hyphea and that they then produce a zygote toghether with the hyphea or sclerotia.

simply said: microconidia falls on sclerotia or hyphea , there is plasmogamy (cytoplasm comes togheter) then there is karyogamy (nucleus fusion) and there is the forming of a zygote , meiosis and mitosis and then you have 8 ascospores.
So the microconidia can indeed act in a sexual proces.

on the other hand , the microconidia can also act on them selfs and germinate without any sexual proces.


So they state it like this: the microconidia have a double role: they act either as a propagule (germinate themself, no sexual proces) or they act as a spermatia.
And with the spermatia, they simply want to make a difference between the germination and the other task (the sexual proces).

So to me to term spermatia is just a word, "definition" they gave the microconidia to make a clear distinction between the asexual proces and the sexual proces. Some scientist believe now that the microconidia first role is to act as spermatia.
(because the germination can be done by macrocondia too or other structures.)


And remember that I am talking about this in the concideration of Botrytis cinerea.
WIch has a teleomorphic and anamorphic form.