The truth about lying - cutting off Pinocchio's nose (May/22/2007 )

warning: this post is so long that you can skip the first four paragraphs

If we think that truth is that which is hidden when we are telling a lie, have you ever wondered how many lies we give and receive each day? When asked how we are doing we’d say “great..super..” (even when we’re feeling crappy). “How’s work..excellent (even when our boss is from hell). “How’s your love life…more in love than ever” (though our partner has already dumped us). These white lies buffer us from intrusion and prevent us from revealing too much of ourselves.

Unfortunately, as we go up the color spectrum, lies are often used either for personal gain (e.g., in science it could be fraud, plagiarism, theft of intellectual property etc) or to escape punishment or censure - a classic example is Clinton’s “I didn’t have any relations with that woman” or when our PI asks us “”how’s the thesis writing?” “oh, just wrapping it up and you’ll have it by the end of the week “(even when we haven’t even started yet).

But when George Dubya invaded Iran because he believed that it had weapons of mass destruction some argued that technically he did not lie, he was just mistaken. If George believes X but tells Y, then he is lying regardless if Y is a truth or a lie. However, if George believes X and tells X even if X is not the truth, then he is not lying. Apropos, a lie hinges on the intent of the teller to mislead.

And speaking of intent, probably one of most common reasons why we lie is to spare the other person pain. How often are we asked…Do I look fat? What do you think of my work? How's my pot roast? Do you think he really loves me? Have you ever been backed into a corner when you had no choice but to tell the truth, was totally unprepared for the shock and the hurt you caused and deep inside you're thinking that you should have told a lie instead and no truth was worth all that pain? When it matters most do we lie or tell the truth?

Which leads me to the actual question I wanted to ask (after so long an intro ), in this complex world we now live in where diplomacy is highly valued, protection of personal space is paramount and harm reduction almost a sacred duty, do we still have room for an unapologetic, unabashed and uncompromising honesty? Truthful thoughts, anyone?

casandra

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Actually, George invaded Iraq. And on behalf of all Americans who didn't vote for him either time, I want to apologize to the rest of the world. I really am sorry, and we're doing our best to correct the situation.

And he wasn't mistaken, he lied. He presented false data, or at least questionable data. And don't let people tell you he's too dumb to tell the difference or make up his own mind, because he isn't.

And that brings me to the point I'm getting at. Have you noticed it's usually more of an effort to lie than it is to tell the truth? One lie leads to another, you keep having to make more lies and lie to more people to cover the original lie. Frankly, I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

But there's a difference between being honest and being a jerk. Most husbands know that you tell your wife "Those other jeans look better on you." instead of "The jeans you have on make your butt look like it's the size of Cleveland." Both of these are true statements, the first keeps me from sleeping on the couch.

You say diplomacy like it's a bad thing. I think diplomacy, as it applies to honesty, means that you phrase things in such a way that you are honest, yet your goal is to improve the overall situation for both parties. In the above example, my wife buys the more attractive jeans, she's happy with her body, I get to be seen in public with an attractive wife, plus I get to sleep with her. Everybody's happy, nobody lied.

Do we have room for truth? Personally, I think our world depends on it.

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George (aka chimpy mcflight-suit) was looking to invade since he was elected... it didn't matter who. He wanted to be a war-time president. Remember before 9/11? There was a curfuffle with China and some planes that were shot down, and spy's taking photos? It's not like he's in charge anyway, his advisors are. They decide what he does the vast majority of the time. They made the decisions. I think he's just the (chimp-like) face of many many people with the same agenda. I will now go and find my tin-foil hat and wait for the aliens to beem me up.

Many time i lie to "save face". I never want to go the gym, yet every morning i tell the instructors i'm so glad to be there. they know i'm lying. mainly because of the nicknames i've given the equipment (ie, the evil eliptical, stair-master from hell etc etc. no, i'm not kidding, i actually have named them). when asked how i'm going, i give a stock-standard response, without really thinking "i'm fine, and you?". it's only after that i've had time to sort my brain out that i go on with, i'm tired and sore and i think i broke something in my back. a stranger doesn't need to know the intimate details of the spasms in my lower back and the blisters on my feet. it's a personal boundary.

when asked with more complex questions, i often don't see the cues to lie. i went out with my sister who is a size 8 (aus), but had squeezed into a size 6 (aus) pants. she asked how she looked... i said something about stuffed lamb or mutton or something. that was the wrong answer. what i should have said was she looked lovely. i saw a friends new house, and was asked what i thought of it. it was a terrible run down dungy old shack, and i was suprised that anyone would want to live there. i have no idea what i should have said. it would be too condescending to say, "it's a real fixer-uper", but completely untrue to say it was nice. i dont' think i'll be invited back there in the near future.
on the other hand, regardless of how burnt or salty anything my mums cooks... i will always eat it, and tell her it's the best ever.

The problem is, if you are truthful, and the truth isn't kind... you can be mistaken as being rude or hurtful. very often the person asking a question already knows the repsonse they want to hear, they are just looking for confirmation of their decision. "do you think this dress suits me"... either they smile and swirl around (yes, it does suit you), or make a grump face (let's look around for something more flattering). probems arise when your opinion is different from theirs. how you approach your answer is the key. nothing is wrong with diplomacy, but when you are such a stickler to the details, the message sometimes get's lost.

my favourite example of this was in gulf war 1. when the army had those big guns that could "intercept" missiles in the air. there were massive amounts of news coverage that these new guns were saving lives by "intercepting" the missiles that would hurt poor little innocent babies with ribbons in their hair. . but what the millitary really meant by "intercepting" was "crossing the path of the missile, not necessarily hitting it, but crossing the path where it would have been". it didn't save anyone's lives. it was a waste of $$.

unfortunately, as i've mentioned before, i don't often see the little hints on when to lie and when not too. i very often give my completely honest opinion. i try to be polite about it, if the truth isn't nice. unfortunatly, people tend to be so polite when they give bad news that it doesn't sound like bad news at all. my mum put on a few pounds (not the end of the world), my sisters said they couldn't notice it. i told her the truth (she was looked pregnant), but then got her some running shoes and take her out every couple of days for a jog around the river. it is one thing to give the truth, it is another to do something about it.

truth has consequences, and many times, we don't want to have to deal with the consequences. if i don't tell XX that they're doing something wrong, i don't have to show them how to do it right. if i don't tell XX that their but is the size of texas, i don't have to hard about the pains of dieting and exercise for the next month (and i don't have to camp on the couch).

is there a place for truth, ABSOLUTELY. do we want it, usually no.

V

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I believe in being honest, but maybe only because I'm a lousy, lousy liar!

When someone asks you for an "honest opinion" and you don't have a good one, you have to weigh up the outcome. Some people DO want the truth, and I think it is better if what they don't want to hear comes now, rather than later. And on the bright side, if you do think they look great, they will be pleased because they know you aren't just saying it. Speaking truthfully has a bad rep for being hurtful

My "best" friend happens to be someone that is brutally honest, its one of the things I really depend on. We all need a reality check now and then... even the positive ones!

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I'm a well-known liar and story teller, and the older I become the better the more experience I have.
For example my thesis (luckily i'm incognito here): it is difficult even for me to find out what is real and what's fiction. I'm not a fan of too much lab work.
My parents think I'm finished since several month, but there is still much to write. Perhaps I should find a ghost writer.
Women think I'm charming and a nice and friendly guy, but this is only to make them believe I like them and find them interesting (they are boring and dull, but look good), the reasons for this should be clear.
My local tax office knows nothing real about me, for them I'm a poor employee, regulary out of money, but this is a white lie.
Did I told you that I finished last year the NY marathon? Not very fast but I did it.
Only people I don't like I tell the truth: You look fat today, some more sports would help you! How much have you drunk yesterday? And similar stuff.

The biggest problem is not to get confused with this many parallel tales and to balance them out so that my acquaintance finds no gaps. Sometimes I think to write down what untruth or adopted truth (this term I like more) I have told whom, just to hedge my bets.
And if they ask me what I'm writing continuously and what I'm looking up before speaking with them, there a new tale has to be invented...Perhaps my ambitions to become an author...
Did I really told you that I'm writing my thesis and that I'm biologist? Opps!

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I didn't bash casandra, once more a feint.

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Hmmm...a separate post just for me lucky me!! And I wonder how much of what you've written in your previous post were half-true, half-false, jokey lies, blatant lies, creative lies, lies that-will-land-you-in-hell kind of lies or worse, a night-on-the-couch worth of lies (as confirmed by the married guys here) . And does this mean you don't like me because you wrote a lot of horrible but true things about me (get out of that one without lying) ?

Is it really so darn difficult to say something truthful even if or especially when you're protected by cyber space? That's precisely what I was asking when I started this thread. Which is easier to tell the whole truth or tell a complete lie (I'd include all the halves here, even omissions pehaps)? Like you said we're so used to some kind of deception that it's actually hard to separate fact from fiction and that we are all actors, magicians or authors in this life- that simple, eh? Thanks a lot hobglobin, you eased my mind . Let's start another thread, shall we? Who tells more lies- men or women? (Oh no, not again)

casandra

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That was honest! We seldom hear any apologies from the Americans for this preemptive war that they are waging
in Iraq. If George (with his flunkey Tony) knew x but told X+++ , then he was still lying. We knew that, so we didn’t join the war. Yet we think how the world’s most powerful intelligence agency could get it all wrong? And how could the lies be perpetrated for so long. Yeah, George is not dumb but so are the rest of the American people (esp those who've re-elected him) and those who have been supporting this so-called ‘just war’.
Technically you didn’t tell a bald-faced lie there but still there’s a hint of deception for the ultimate purpose of manipulation. You could have told her the 'real' reason why you don’t want her wearing those jeans which would have been more honest but could unfortunately earn you a night trip to the couch. But if she asks you "and why can't I wear these jeans or why don't you like these jeans", what would be your next move without resorting to lying?



You're right. It's exactly what hobglobin said. You've got to be sharp, very inventive and with excellent memory, otherwise it's not gonna work. So whoever says that lies are told by the lazy, unimaginative and the morons must think again.



I would say it depends on the truth and the consequences thereafter of not telling it.

Cheers,
casandra

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All these thoughts imply that you know what the truth is. And that's the problem, because everyone has its own view and truth. There is perhaps an absolute reality, but nobody knows it, as it is filtered by several instances.
An easy example: A traffic accident occurs, there are several witnesses, but if you ask them, everyone tells you a quite different story, because the directions of view, the attention, the time when they became aware of the accident, etc, are different. But all are sure that they tell the "truth". This is partly a psychological phenomenon you can find in all humans, i.e., the brain invents parts of the event to produce for you a complete and fitting reality.
And in a more complex field such as politics, it is similar, except that there is no absolute truth. Everone has its own one, and additionally there are many opinions, beliefs, rumors, inventions, stories, etc, changing "reality". And you have your own beliefs, faiths and preconceptions and know you have to build a "reality" out of all this stuff...
And if you now see this not very clever GWB (my personal truth ), with his strong beliefs and a completely filtered reality (e.g., by much more clever advisors and mentors; the higher your position the more filtered is reality), I feel a little bit sorry about this f*** bastard (never imagined that I would defense this nasty guy ).
This is not a lecture for the benefit of lies and liars, but to show that life is not so easy. Even if someone tells you a complete lie (in your opinion, reality), perhaps in his reality it was true, or what he thought it was the truth.

"Truth comes out of error more easily than out of confusion."

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Even if what you’re actually pertaining to is the subjective truth i.e. that which is related to our own reality you still can’t say that “there is no absolute truth” because if this statement were true it will only invalidate or contradict itself unless it is false.

Water is still H2O or 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples no matter what our personal biases/filters are. ‘To say of what is that it is and what is not that it is not, is true’ according to Aristotle. If we then base truth on belief, I think that no amount of believing will make something true. This is one compelling atheistic argument against God and belief.

And I wonder if we can also equate it with perception…much like what we do with beauty, do you think that truth is in the eye of the beholder (your example of eye witness reports or blood may be red but not to a color-blind person)? How about basing it on consensus then… hmm.. even if we have the whole of humanity endorsing it, this doesn’t make something true if it were false?

We may be into Kierkegaard’s subjectivity theory but we can’t bend, twist and mold our reality to the point where we completely lose track of all objectivity and then be faced with dire consequences later on. Look at GWB, he may have believed and acted upon his own subjective truth which could dilute his culpability somewhat, but this doesn’t absolve him of his intent to mislead nor his misrepresentation of the facts. As a result- a whole country devastated and countless lives destroyed, his position therefore IMHO, is soo indefensible. I know, I know, people don't like a lot of moralising just this once .

casandra

PS
Wow, a complete post without sniping. Nunc est bibendum

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